

Goldman Sachs is squaring off with Nouriel Roubini, a professor from New York University’s Stern School of Business, over his dire outlook for the investment bank.
The back-and-forth began with an opinion piece of Mr. Roubini’s that appeared on Forbes.com. The article made a host of gloomy predictions and included the claim that Goldman’s latest capital raising-effort was a “cosmetic” fix and that “most of its lines of business (including trading) are now losing money.”
Elsewhere in the article, Mr. Roubini — who has warned for years that a major financial crisis was brewing — suggested a “total meltdown of the U.S. financial system could occur.”
The article drew a forceful reaction from Lucas van Praag, Goldman’s global head of media relations and a partner at the firm.
In a letter to the editor, published Friday on Forbes.com, Mr. Van Praag called Mr. Roubini’s claim that the firm was losing money “curious” and suggested that it was based more on a “gut reaction” than fact. He pointed out that Goldman reported a profit in the third quarter and had done so for every quarter since the credit crunch began last summer.
Mr. van Praag also suggested that Mr. Roubini was painting Wall Street with too broad a brush. “Mr. Roubini does not distinguish between the differing performances at various firms,” he wrote in his letter. “As a result, he fails to acknowledge that the difference in performance is clearly a function of different business models, risk management practices and decision making.”
Asked about Goldman’s response, Mr. Roubini told Dealbook that he meant to say that Goldman “will” lose money in the future. He went on to say that their profits were down across the board from the same time last year and that “the only reason Goldman didn’t go bust” was because of the “direct and indirect support from the Fed.”
Mr. Roubini contends that this support is unsustainable and that even though “Goldman may be better managed” than many of its peers, it could not survive by itself given the fundamental changes in the market. “Look at Morgan Stanley,” he said. “They are teetering on the edge. Goldman is no different — it depends on the same model to make money.”
Mr. Roubini, whom The New York Times has called “Dr. Doom,” predicted in February that every major, independent broker-dealer in the United States would fall because of business models that depend on using lots of short-term leverage to finance illiquid, long-term assets.
In one sense, he has already been vindicated: Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers have disappeared, and Merrill Lynch it set to be sold to Bank of America. The last of the independent broker-dealers — Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — changed to bank holding companies last month.
While the firms said this change would make them more financially stable, Mr. Roubini says he still believes that Goldman and Morgan are vulnerable. His advice to both banks: Merge with a foreign bank as soon as possible.
– Cyrus Sanati
Go to Mr. van Praag’s Letter via Forbes.com »
Go to Mr. Roubini’s Opinion Piece via Forbes.com »

2008
2:29 pm
Prof. Roubini has been 100% correct on all, I repeat, all of his predictions. Because of him and because he is willing to share his knowledge with all, I have been saved financially. Perhaps the powers that be would be wise to listen to him before it is too late. He is a man of courage who does not view the world through rose colored glasses, but through crystal clear lenses.
— Posted by Wayne
2008
2:38 pm
Mr Roubini has called every development in this meltdown. Goldman and Morgan Stanley are dinosaurs waiting for extinction. No model, no survival.
— Posted by williambanzai7
2008
2:44 pm
Now that Buffet, his cash and his record/reputation are involved, Goldman’s chances appear reasonable. Morgan is another story… All the same, Goldman’s hubris in the face of criticism of any kind indicates that the investment bank still hasn’t learned its lesson.
— Posted by RJB Boston
2008
3:04 pm
If he knew so much, then how come he is invested in 100% equities? He said that on a Bloomberg Radio show.
Does he not believe in his theories?
— Posted by NK
2008
3:29 pm
Nouriel Roubini deserves a Nobel prize.
— Posted by CDS is behind this crisis
2008
3:40 pm
Prof. Roubini’s comments have always been sensible and appropriately passionate, given the consequences of the irresponsible lack of regulation that has occurred.
Although his correct predictions have annoyed Wall Street, if you actually read his blog, (which is currently free), you will see that he puts a lot of emphasis on specific recommendations for constructive action.
— Posted by saraz
2008
4:36 pm
So no need to support Goldman….or not !
— Posted by Max
2008
4:47 pm
Prof. Roubini also saved my family assets as due to him we went to 75% cash during 2007. I only wish we had pulled out completely as we are near to retirement and my mother is aged.
Seniors are in serious trouble and no one seems to be addressing their dire situation.
— Posted by susan levine
2008
4:52 pm
If you say something loud enough and long enough and scary enough ,chances are sooner or later you may be right and everyone might think you are a genius. While “Dr. Doom’s” track record as of late has been pretty good, he has been speaking this way for a very long time, and I suggest no matter what Central Banks do and World Governments do, he will continue the chicken little the “sky is falling” story for the rest of his economic career. And when this crisis is over, and it will be over, he will begin beating another drum. It’s just his slant and that will never change. A case of economic myopia?
— Posted by Rick
2008
4:55 pm
Goldman has a long history of false statements and material misrepresentations. So now they have become a commercial bank overnight. Yet they still have billions of liabilities as an investment bank. It is time for Goldman to9 quietly withdraw from thye stage. With the new regulations and the re-implementation of Glass-Steegal the quick obscene profits will evaporate overnight. As a tax payer I resent bailing out a group of unregulated thieves. Good riddance!
Roubini is correct. Goldman is wrong.
— Posted by eingreifen
2008
4:55 pm
The Buffet is not dumb nor do I believe him to be in the same moral class as much of GS management. He is not hasty. I think GS management has more to fear from BUFFET than the market.
His presence and involvement are a blessing to GS-even if it is only superstitious. GS will likely survive, but NOT with its present corporate ethics or culture.
I AM angry with the Treasury coruption via GS and I will lose faith in the whole system if Buffet’s motives were strictly to take over our TREASURY USING GS as his cat’s paw.
Hope not. Possibly by Thanksgiving we will see a GOLDMAN SACHS MORGAN-purged of its present incompetant management. If Warren is really tough, he could squeeze at least $4.2 Billion out of Management and ex Management-bonus/peformance recaptures when accounting is done accurately. No joke, there has been that much pilfered, and of course all board members should be let go as soon as possible. I would sue many for criminal negligence and abuse of Fiduciary responsibilities.
Out of court settlements in these cases might be substantial too. Every $500 million DOES MEAN SOMETHING!!
I am Praying for Us,
George C. Harter
— Posted by George C. Harter
2008
4:55 pm
Roubini’s recommends that GS & MS merges with a foreign bank in order to survive. We see MS is involved with Mitsubishi and the deal is expected to close on Tuesday, both sides have confirmed. However, with shorts killing MS stock price, at one point today MS was only worth $8B and is expected to receive $9B. It will be interesting to see if the terms are re-negotiated.
However, if these two firms survive the storm, the long term picture will be very profitable. Sure, institutional profits will not be as grand as years past but wealth management capital is likely to increase. There is money on the sidelines, waiting for the next opportunity and with most major competitors out of the game; more pie for GS & MS.
— Posted by Od
2008
4:59 pm
Rereading comments, I wish there were some way to require commentors to make an honest accounting of their Financial interests in the topic at hand.
Semi-Anonymous comments from GS or MS employees is just more of the cr*p we have had to endure since 1980.
George C. Harter
— Posted by George C. Harter
2008
5:00 pm
GS is no different than other failed banks in the sense that they have a leverage of at least 30, but very likely closer to 40 or 50%. Just the current big correction in ALL the asset classes and the raise of the LIBOR and TED spread make them insolvant.
Then PR can say whatever they want in order to allow their top executives to sell their shares and avoid loosing everything like the Gorilla of Lehman…
— Posted by Pej
2008
5:11 pm
Roubini predicted a hard landing in 2005, and the crisis started in 2007. In my view, timing is not important, if you make qualitative predictions, but Roubini, on the contrary, makes quantitative predictions, and this is why he is so famous -many other economists, more serious, have also warned on financial excesses-. I suspect that if he makes quantitative predictions is becouse he knows is the shortest way to headlines.
Hence, Roubini’s opinion deserves only a moderate credit.
— Posted by jm
2008
5:20 pm
Prof. Roubini is crazy. He is just trying to throw a arrow in the dark hoping it might hit the target. I very much doubt his knowledge and credibility. These companies(MS & GS) are very sound and will survive. You can see that are quickly adapting to market conditions and will come out strong and more profitable out of this financial crisis.
— Posted by BK
2008
5:27 pm
Nouriel Roubini is the most qualified by virtue of his research, predictions, solutions, and realtive disinterest to be Secretary of the Treasury…not any minion of Goldman Sachs. Mr. Obama–listen up!
— Posted by Katy Meigs
2008
5:29 pm
What goes down must come up! It is how long you stay up that matters. Goldman did stay up for a long time.
— Posted by Navin
2008
5:41 pm
Goldman Sach’s is an outstanding company facing unprecedented market conditions. We have entered a major political and economic realignment of power. I can think of no other company more prepared to emerge from the ashes this destruction intact and ready for the opportunities ahead.
— Posted by Sean O'Connor
2008
5:52 pm
As for Prof Roubini only one thing comes to mind:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”
Theodore Roosevelt
Goldman Sachs has always been in the arena!
— Posted by Sean O'Connor
2008
5:56 pm
The sneering of Mr. Van Praag is laughable, yet thoroughly understandable. As the firm’s point man on image, he’s obligated to rebuff prominently placed opinions that are contrary to the company line. It’s his stinking job!
Dr. Roubini’s vision, in particular his Feb. 08 “12 Point” paper that foresaw, in proper sequence, the stunning events that have taken place in the last eight months cannot be refuted. I know of NO ONE with such a clear and accurate understanding of what is happening and what will happen, if immediate radical measures (he freely offers specific, appropriate steps) are not taken in a united global effort by central banks.
As an aside, if B. Obama does not soon include Dr. Roubini in his closest circle of economic advisers, then he is a damned fool.
— Posted by MRD
2008
6:11 pm
Enough with the At-a-boy. Mr. Roubini will garnish a hugh following when he offers his undivided attention to UNCLE and assists in successfully manuevering out of and away from our present financial crisis that has affected the entire global economies. Until then he should reserve his blab for the classroom not the REAL WORLD.
— Posted by Russell
2008
6:21 pm
Why does Roubini get so much media play? He says extreme things to get attention and raise his profile, and ends up being given the power to move markets in self-fulfilling ways; people want to listen to him because he feeds a kind of simplistically appealing view that “they’re all bums and incompetents,” which in turn feeds the panic that is actually the cause of the immediate problems.. `I find him irresponsible and self-serving. The fact that some (above) sees him as cabinet material testifies to the success of his campaign of self-promotion in our shallow celebrity culture.
— Posted by HC
2008
6:23 pm
Goldman is no longer a partnership since going public, ergo van Praag is not a partner, but a shareholder plus whatever lofty title he carries. These Wall Street thieves who resisted oversight and have now possibly bankrupted the financial system now need to face the music. Their greed, pure and simple, is the direct cause of this debacle, and no amount of scrutiny is too much at this point.
— Posted by TNC
2008
6:26 pm
If Bear went GS and MS are right behind them.
Of course Roubini was correct, to those who think he is wrong, take the other side of his bet and go long worthless GS shares… youll be broke.
— Posted by troy
2008
6:29 pm
I wish that somebody would give Dr. Roubini a high position in government.
— Posted by asdf
2008
6:39 pm
Rick & other disparagers.
NR has been trying to warn people for several years that the mountain of debt was unsustainable. Very few listened, including GS. Now that he has been proven correct and the fantasy land view of GS etc are being ignored you attack the messenger not the facts,
Fact is he was right, Goldilocks was wrong.
The same clowns who got the world into this mess, GS, LEH, BS etc are now going to profit from the $700B-$1T
boilout paid for by the people who did the right thing and paid off their mortgages, own their cars etc. Where is your criticism of that injustice???????
regards
— Posted by nevket240
2008
6:56 pm
Dr. Roubini has been prescient in his analyses and conclusions on where the world’s financial system is headed. I would hope that Henry Paulson includes Dr. Roubini in his inner circle and seeks his input to remedy the problems we are facing. Certainly, Roubini should be a strong contender for the Secretary of the Treasury role in the next administration.
— Posted by Rakesh Varma
2008
7:03 pm
Mr. Roubini brings credibility back to the social science of Economics. He is an incredible financial mind that will be associated with the robustness of modern economic thought. Keynes, Friedman, Minsky, Roubini….
— Posted by Jeff Benson
2008
7:04 pm
I agree Dr. Roubini is interesting and constructive when he has all the facts. He is, also, a nice-looking man who should have his photo retaken and get a better nickname. So glad he saved someone’s finances. I wish I’d known of him sooner.
— Posted by Ruth C
2008
7:11 pm
I found Dr. Roubini via the blog Calculated Risk and thought his arguments were so well reasoned that I unwound virtually all of our stocks when the Dow was between 12,300 and 12,800 and went to 98% cash. I was able to talk one sister into saving her retirement fund, though another thought I was nuts and has now lost half of what she’s saved over 30 years.
He has been right on everything he’s said and has had the courage to keep saying it even when others ridiculed him.
— Posted by Caitlin
2008
7:30 pm
I fear for when Dr. Roubini adds step: World loses all confidence in USA, no longer lends to USA, and RMB/HKD is allowed to float in open market in part due to the lack of demand from US consumer during depression.
— Posted by Sidney Johnson
2008
7:37 pm
The Professor acknowledges the derivative crisis but does not address it. The broker dealers created many unnecessary and complex security types in order to collect transaction fees. The opaque and complex nature of the securities allowed the house to trade for it’s own book.
Like the gimmick ARMs, they got caught in a declining market. The thinly based and concentrated CDS market is collapsing. The Investment Banks are being punished for ruining the economy. Successful or not, they will be punished. Fuld was unrepentant and outraged that he could no longer pillage the economy. Roubini is correct, their business model is history.
Using deception, they ruined their customers on both sides of a deal in their haste to profit themselves; they no longer have credibility . The entire financial system is dealing with the hangover from their actions. Almost overnight, what was free money, good as gold, is now a toxic liability that cannot be measured unless one has nightmares. The ownership society has become the foreclosure crisis. The third pillar of our economic engine is now seized up and dysfunctional.
— Posted by Ransome
2008
7:41 pm
What a load of rubbish! MS yes I agree unstable and is heading down… but GS no way! Buffett is no mug and would only invest if he truely believes in the success of the company.
GS is an outstanding company which has strong cultural values and risk management strategies. It’s operation division which prides itself on being risk managers is outstanding and clearly differentiates itself from other market counterparts.
GS is a strong firm, with a strong liquidity position and continuous profits… they are the ones to watch out for.. .they will come out of this shining!!
MS however.. I am not too sure…
— Posted by Nish
2008
7:45 pm
I saw Dr. Roubini on television about one year ago. I thought he was too pessimistic, but it turns out he was completely correct. The people at Goldman Sachs made their money by borrowing other people’s money, and then placing risky bets, which in the past were lucky (like so many others). But as every gambler at a casino knows, luck eventually runs out. Time is running out for Goldman Sachs. The bubble has burst.
— Posted by Dan from Canada
2008
7:49 pm
I am thoroughly indebted to the insightful analysis of Dr. Roubini. Through a careful and regular reading of his work dating back to last year, one would have been able to acquire an anticipatory knowledge of the events that have transpired. Those who acted on this understanding have likely preserved or even enhanced their portfolio value. Those who discounted or ignored his views and bought into the perpetual spin of wall street have likely been hit hard in recent weeks. While I feel sympathy for these individuals, no one can now in retrospect dismiss the value and accuracy of Dr. Roubini’s insights.
— Posted by informed
2008
7:53 pm
Dr Roubini will go down in history as the economist who saw all this coming. Every other economist who argued against him or thought everything would keep going up will be discredited.
Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley are doomed - they hold most of the debt. And the same goes for all the other big banks in the world that have assets based on bits of worthless paper.
— Posted by Mike Peters
2008
7:54 pm
Yeah go Roubini..no wonder he’s so smart..he’s Iranian.
— Posted by saeed
2008
8:02 pm
This whole thing was a very cleverly crafted and executed game plan, by the American state, in order to rob the rest of the world of their hard earned bread. People outside America are paying more than Americans for the problems caused by the Americans! I wish there was a possibility to stuff you all in a space ship and fire you off to Mars, where you could use your financial creativity and geniousity, perhaps also once for the good of the Marcians. Who knows may be you lot would fit very well with the Marcians. You don’t belong to this world.
— Posted by Al
2008
8:13 pm
The latest melt down in the stock market was caused by President Bush and Secretary Paulson who allowed Lehman to go under. It was a huge mistake. Another bad decision which is costing us $700 billion or more. It would be a complete disaster to allow Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs
to go under. Of course if you do not need a job and have all your money buried in your back yard, enough to last you ten years, then it won’t matter to you.
— Posted by Burke
2008
8:22 pm
Per # 1 “Prof. Roubini has been 100% correct on all, I repeat, all of his predictions.” which makes himn a modern day Nostradamus. Assuming that he is not just another wannabe doomsday prophet and actually knows what he he is talking about … how much has he made in the market? What is his personal total net worth? It is posers like these and their equally moronic followers that are causing such panic in the marketplace. Warren Buffet on the other hand actually knows a thing or two and poured money in now to gain a large stake in an essentially sound company. As George Bernard Shaw had one said - “those who can - do, others teach”.
— Posted by Bob from Norwalk
2008
8:42 pm
I signed up for Dr. Roubini’s RGE monitor and earlier this year went all cash, best decision I ever made.
Warren Buffett had offered to re-insure 800 billion of municipal bonds but would not touch CDO’s (better known as ‘toxic waste’). Earlier this year Merrill Lynch sold its CDO’s for 22 cents on the dollar. The writing is on the wall, or rather the balance sheets…..
— Posted by Mary from Canada
2008
8:43 pm
Buffet bought $5 billion of preferred shares in GS and got a very sweet deal. Anyone who looks closely at it will agree that GS was buying advertizing. It worked. Immediately after, investors bought $5 billion of common stock in GS. Buffet may come off the deal quite well, but I suspect Nouriel is right and the equity holders will lose.
— Posted by don
2008
9:07 pm
The Wall Street casino was built like a deck of cards and it has fallen over. Leverage, founded on cheap, abundant money allowed the so-called investment banks to double down over and over, until they finally bet the house and lost. But not without skulking away with monstrous transactions fees. They rewarded themselves for churning, not investing. Whether Roubini is right or if he ends up being another Joe Granville, only time will tell. But one thing is absolutely certain, Greenspan’s cheap money policy of rewarding spenders and penalyzing savers was the foundation of the swamp that we are all now stuck in. Once in a century we get a federal reserve chairman that fails to understand the entire system is built on good faith, and throwing out money like Japan has done for 20 years is an act of bad faith.
— Posted by Kevin
2008
9:08 pm
What many seem to forget is the fact that these firms are primary dealers, responsible for raising the trillions of dollars that the US will be needing in perpetuity. The commissions alone from this arer worth a fortune because there are fewer of these firms in business now and the amount of revolving government debt will go through the roof.
The US gov’t needs them to be alive. Without access to borrowed money, it too will succomb.Love ‘em or hate ‘em, as long as Uncle needs the dough, these firms will live to fight another day.
For the investor, the question becomes very interesting. GS, for instance, has tradeable preferred shares with dividends that rise with the LIBOR rate. Worth looking at as they now yield more than what Warren’s sweetheart deal got, with the sweetener that as LIBOR rises, so does the dividend.
— Posted by Dave G
2008
9:18 pm
Dr. Doom is spot on.
Regardless who invested in Goldman, Buffet is no exception, Goldman is heading towards real hard times.
Their pre-credit crunch business model will not work anymore. The extremely leveraged business model can not be executed anymore on Wall Street.
Even though Goldman is a bank holding company, it is not a guarantee that they will survive. If Goldman survives, they will be much smaller bank and profits will be quite modest. The big bonuses will be a thing of the past.
— Posted by Peter
2008
9:18 pm
The financial community should pay tribute to Dr.Roubini’s work, not to antagonize him. Dr.Doom is right all the way through and time will tell. The Big Boys are still playing at the casino -sure losers at the end- waiting for the Big Brother to bail them out at the expense of the taxpayers. GS and others will go down on the Doomsday which is rapidly approaching.
— Posted by Ted (Bangkok)
2008
9:24 pm
Roubini has great foresight and is broadly correct - however, just not necessarily in every single case. I suspect he will occasionally overstate his case and make sensationalist statements just to attract attention and press coverage. Nothing wrong with that. Will Roubini go out and short GS at 90 with his own money? Doubt it. Knowing GS, they probably already have a list of alternative backup plans.
— Posted by Tom
2008
9:37 pm
Dr. Paul Davidson also predicted the financial crisis years ago. Earlier this year, I read Dr. Roubini’s paper on “The Rising Risk of a Systemic Meltdown”, I felt it’s hard to imagine how these things would happen to big financial corporations. Then George Soros also mentioned the CDO markets and the financial crisis in his latest book. Now we all know they are right. Off-balance sheet items have to be appeared on balance sheet now.
We don’t need to argue with these former i-bankers. They still believed that they are the “Master of the Universe”. Just look at who Hank Paulson appointed to take on the $700+ billion project, a 35 year guy who only has 6 years of working experience in GS. These people are not good in fixing things at all. They don’t even know the most important step is to recapitalize the banks. And keep blaming the new accounting rule.
Just like the persona in “Wen Genius Failed”. “Barbarians at the Gate”, and “Liars’ Poker”. Money can change people completely. Last year they celebrated that they had the highest bonus in record years. If they knew what they are doing, how come they are all gone now? However, many of them still believe that they are the Master of the Universe.
I wish all executives at Morgan Stanley and GS best of luck!
— Posted by Ashley
2008
10:14 pm
Dr. Roubini is very analytical, straight talking and has no conflicts of interest. His analysis and commentary shine through all the mud thrown up by most economists who have one ax or another to grind.
— Posted by Phil
2008
10:17 pm
it’s interesting that so many people are willing to give greater credence to a guy who talks to kids all day about how things should be than to the richest man in the country who has spent his entire practical life in the business and clearly has greater inside access to the pulse of the system.
It’s something like saying that some arm chair quarterback is a better player than any guy who is out there on an actual field.
Perhaps this is a symptom of either the state of cluelessness that we are suffering from or the state of irrationality that we are suffering under due to the panic.
It has to be one of the two.
Here’s the trade that all the Roubiniites here are espousing, short Warren Buffet long Roubini.
Might work for the next ten minutes but seems like a bad idea over the next ten years. Just as no one over has ever stood next to you pointing a gun at your head forcing you to buy stock in any publicly traded company, no one can force anyone to put on that position or use that as the basis for their own investment rationale.
If you are considering it out of a sense of panic, take a deep breath and think again before you pull the trigger.
— Posted by matthew fiori
2008
10:41 pm
I still don’t all these nonsense about wall street greed.
On the contrary, it is the main street greed that got us here. We have so many people here enjoyed all the cheap credit for all these years and now saying it is wall street’s fault?
It is the shareholders of the wall street firms that should be angry, not people who got zero percent down, zero interest rate loans!
— Posted by Peter Chen
2008
10:54 pm
Goldman Sachs should be shut down
not allowed to become a bank
they are NOT TRUSTWORTHY !!!!!!!!!!
— Posted by arigoldberg
2008
10:57 pm
OMG, GS employees, if you want to sing praise for your sicken employer, at least TRY to be objective, some of the praises I saw here are simply disgusting, no wonder were Wall Street run to the ground, with a bunch of sycophants on top, anything can happen.
— Posted by eatfastnoodle
2008
10:58 pm
Although Dr. Roubini’s message and prior articles have predicted gloom, current events globally certainly support his thesis. Goldman partner is trying to slide by with a report that they have been responsible. Unfortunately, it appears that their only real success is the production of massive salaries and bonus for the executives.
ML Denburg, Ph.D. Iowa
— Posted by Marvin L. Denburg, Ph.D.
2008
11:00 pm
GOLD MAN SACHS STOLE THE MONEY OF RETIREES
that is how Lord Blank Check Fein got rich
disgusting to work at goldman
— Posted by paul schejtman
2008
11:01 pm
GS is an artist at PR and always tries to paint a pretty picture that swings their way. The only reason they did not get burned on this subprime mess is the fact that they were slow to enter the business (prior golden deals were generating huge returns, so they wasn’t a need to aggressively enter the business to lift returns).
What a crazy business model the investment banks were using, can’t believe that this was allowed for such a long time.
This is definitely a test that they will be able to overcome without much effort. No way they will go bust, especially on Paulson’s watch just imagine how bad it would look.
As a commercial bank the price of their stock is for sure over prized.
— Posted by Paul Goldstein
2008
11:03 pm
Treasury/Fed is not going to let GS or MS fail. They have learnt from the Lehman debacle.
I think it is totally inappropriate for Dr. Doom or anybody else to speculate on companies.. I’mean if somebody starts a false rumor YOU ARE IN TROUBLE..the bank will be in trouble…regardless of how well it has been managed.
— Posted by Raghuveer
2008
11:11 pm
Say what you will about Prof. Roubini, but he was dead-on. Indeed, based upon his track record, and recent developments, Goldman and Morgan are set to fall — and the stock market is reacting accordingly.
— Posted by W
2008
11:22 pm
I thought that the investment banks were over leveraged against their private capital base. Now I realize that they were leveraging against the United States Treasury. If we now decide to return to the time honored leverage ratio of ten to one under our new socialist banking system, I can’t imagine paying any chief executive of a bank ten times more than the medium income of a United States citizen.
— Posted by James S.
2008
11:30 pm
who to trust? Henry Paulson and his friends in Goldman, or Mr. Roubini, it is so clear that you have to trust Mr. Roubini, all others are either wrong or liars.
— Posted by jimmy
2008
12:08 am
It is in no investors interest to see GS, JPM, MS or any of these guys go down whether through jealousy or whatever motivation you think have. Still business models based on ripping clients off have never lasted.
You should be looking at your sleepy regulators. Problems won’t be addressed until those who have failed (including regulators & politicians who tried to score a political point) are gone.
— Posted by Mike
2008
12:58 am
Will GS have to stoop to the saving largess of the Japanese like its midtown peer? I can just imagine the late night marathon toasts with sake and Manischewitz! LOL
— Posted by middle guy
2008
1:09 am
I agree with comment no. 5. Nouriel Roubini must surely be on course eventually for a Nobel prize. But first he must help with solutions and not just so comprehensively and accurately diagnose the malfunctions and inefficiencies to come. His fame rests on prediction alone at the moment.
Post no. 168 from T.Gudwien, Chicago behind the Greenspan article (SO useful to have!) tells us that worldwide, derivative trading is worth $531 trillion whilst world GDP is only worth $50 trillion. His arithmetic and judgment is that there is therefore some $480 trillion of “unregulated fictitious capital on the books”.
If these figures are true (and haven’t we all known for a couple of decades that number crunching was manufacturing a false reality?) then there is no bailout possibility anywhere. There is no matching falsehood to deploy to destroy that monster.
The pigeons have come home to roost and we have some serious pain coming. How would Nouriel Roubini get us out of this mess without destroying the global economy and the important self-help positivity of developing countries’ success over the past few years (China, India, Russian, et al).
One positive thing in all this is that Wall Street, The City of London and all the rest of the world’s financials are no longer living in a parallel universe. We are no longer mystified by the magicians spinning numbers and dazzling us and we are all engaging with how it all works.
Makes a nice, healthy swerving change from National Enquirer celebrity watching!!!!!
— Posted by Valerie Paynter
2008
3:42 am
Unsubstantiated speculation, theories and rumour mongering to drive down stock prices are serious securities offences. These are not FACT. To do so particularly when general & market confidences are shot is neither insightful nor scholastic. To damage reputations for whatever reasons is defamatory. In free markets, we rely on our Regulators to ensure that accountability still exist. The US Treasury, Federal Reserve, SEC, FBI and other regulators have a long way to go but their actions in pursuing justice should be fully supported. Do these commentators seek to benefit from any Short positions? One wonders?
— Posted by D Yap
2008
3:48 am
Keynes btw got burned in the 29 crash. He wrote to his clients, “the markets are showing that civilization will end, if indeed it will end then maybe we should sell”? His fund was down 50%. There is a nice side to the story, he rode out the storm and made some very good returns. What makes GS so different from the others?
— Posted by Paul
2008
4:18 am
The monster that is GS will go down, but it will put up one helluva fight. Don’t get sucked down with it into the last abyss!
— Posted by Reaper
2008
4:21 am
It’s easy to kick someone when they are down. Let’s move on to better things.
— Posted by Samuel Perkins
2008
4:27 am
Why is that men who were CONSISTENTLY WRONG on the direction of the economy, Paulson Bernake etc are running the trillion dollar bailouts…but not Mr Roubini?
pff..talking about rewarding for the inept.
— Posted by teok
2008
4:53 am
There’s now a Facebook group called
Dr. Nouriel Roubini for Treasury Secretary
Here’s the link:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=43150940796&ref=mf
— Posted by Timothy Post
2008
6:43 am
Roubini is the godfather of the Credit Crunch. He says ’severe recession’ but that is a soft term for depression. The Anglo economies are like the road runner cartoon. We have been running around like mad, fueled by debt. We have run over the cliff and now we look down and are about to crash into the abyss. We will hit bottom but a lot of folks are going to have their wealth destroyed. My gut tells me it will be a debt deflation slump. The best advice I’ve heard is 30 year government bonds - but that could be wrong! The media will lure you with the siren call of high returning equities will you be a sucker?
— Posted by Get Shorty
2008
8:21 am
Prof. Roubini is to be commended for his unflinching views. GS’s reputation is tarnished; their spokesman can’t change that. “Investment banker” will remain a dirty word for a long, long time, and for good reason.
— Posted by Dan
2008
9:00 am
We must let the free market work and allow competition among many in the financial industry. This all comes back to the repealing The Glass-Steagall Act in 1999 and allowing mega mergers (the first mega merger after the act was Citi/Travelers). Only having a few mega finical companies is terrible for the USA, the consumer and the world.
The other problem is Goldman is the only player in the room, that isn’t helping. To bad Lehman didn’t have Goldman as its biggest trading partner. Hank Paulson came riding in and bailed out his Goldman partners. We are now the United Socialist of America (we now look and act more like Hugo Chavez and Valenzuela).
Goldman was AIG’s (80 billion in trades) biggest trading partner, so AIG was bailed out and Goldman got 100% of their dollar back. Goldman has taken over our financial industry and the one of the biggest banks in the world, the US Treasury
— Posted by William Allen
2008
11:23 am
The sun will come up tomorrow!
— Posted by Paul from California
2008
12:30 pm
Mr . Roubini has been very bearish on the financial system for a number of years.His track record has recently been outstanding.Many of his current recommendations will and should be adopted.The business model of Goldman will certaintly be different and less profitable in the future than in the past.However, do not sell Warren Buffet short. He knows the financial business from the inside .During the 80’s he was involved with a profitable but aggravating position in Salomon . Despite projecting an avuncular image,Mr Buffet is an incredibly opportunistic and sophisticated investor.I am sure that he knows the books and business of GS much better than Mr Roubini ever could.I know that none of Gs critics have made a short investment in Gs anywhere near 5 billion dollars.But remember that Mr Buffet made an investment in preferred stock with an option which cost him nothing.As long as Gs does not go under he will still make his 10%.I do not know how profitable all of Gs businesses are currently.The M/a ,leveraged loan,and securitization businesses are horrible,while trading in these volatile markets have been incredibly profitable.Goldman has proved to be the ultimate alpha trader in all types of markets.
Ms might be a different story.With the Ms stock market cap curently at 10 billion,it is highly probable that Mitsubishi will buy a lot more than 20%.Mitsubishi is an position to make Ms a godfather like offer.There is no chance that either Gs or Ms will go the same way as Leh. Maybe bought out but not receivership.
— Posted by Russ
2008
1:09 pm
We should all hope that the MS merger with a japanese group goes well next week, otherwise, we will be in for another rocky week.
Goldman Sachs will survive because the next Treasury Secretary will be Robert Rubin…(Obama has not hinted but Rubin is very, very close)…..therefore assuring GS’s survival for some time…….
— Posted by Charles
2008
1:11 pm
Dr. Doom called for Dow 7,000 by sometime next year.
It already came pretty close to that Friday.
If you get out now and watch it come back, even 20% or so, you will probably never get back into the market again. Then you will watch inflation eat your savings alive for the rest of your life.
That being said, buy and hold is just plain dumb. People don’t seem to understand the math of drawdowns, a 50% loss and you need a 100% return to get back to break-even.
You really have no choice but to try to time the market.
— Posted by ChrisR
2008
1:15 pm
Goldman survived only because Paulson stepped in with tax-payer money to buy AIG to which Goldman had a $20B exposure. Without government asistance (directly or indirectly), Goldman would be in big trouble right now
— Posted by sipa
2008
1:20 pm
Hi Ruth..
“He is, also, a nice-looking man who should have his photo retaken and get a better nickname.”
How about we start calling Professor Houdini?
— Posted by Mike
2008
1:21 pm
I know what I am about to say is going to ruffle a lot of feathers from Goldman employees as we all would like to believe we are working for a financially sound company but in effect, even though Goldman will never admit it, they recieved a Hard Money Loan from Mr. Warren Buffett.
I have developed my theory on Goldman Sachs based on this reasoning, you have the right to argue it but remember at the end of the day it is just my theory.
I know everyone thinks that it was a good thing that Warren Buffet invest in GS but after analyzing the deal I have come to figure out that the deal is hard money loan. Yes, it is a hard money loan to GS, I had to think about it for a second, I said to myself, first why the heck would GS, the best investment bank on wallstreet, who has a strong reputation of having the best and brightest on wallstreet need to publically raise money?
That made no since to me, unless GS is insolvent because of losing on some trades on the short side and bad investments in commodities. That deal with Buffet allows him to get 10% on his preferred shares, the preferred shares of GS are not yielding 10% right now they are yielding anywhere between 3.75% to 6.2%
here is a link so you can see for yourself:
http://www2.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/investors/creditor-information/preferred-stock.html
When I saw that, I knew that GS had just recieved a hard money loan from Buffet. No wonder why he gets 10% and warrants because I thinking to myself that spectacular deal, how the heck he do that with GS?
I also came to this conclusion, when ever I see companies raising money by issuing public stock offerings like GS just did with the other 2.5 billion dollars of common shares to be issued, that means there is a major liquidity issue going on in that company. I am now apt to believe that GS is probably insolvent and that is why the FED moved so quickly to force it and MS to become commercial banks.
Remember, not to long ago GS had serious trouble with its qaunt funds, they were taking huge losses because of market volatility and as I understand qaunt trading, volatility is not a qaunt models best friend because qaunt funds are mostly all about technical trading and since you have the FEDs, government, and SEC throwing curve balls that kills qaunt funds models and from my understanding these models are very difficult modify.
Also remember, GS was one of the biggest short sellers of financials and pumpers of commodities, the SEC and CFTC killed them on those trades and they should have suffered massive losses because of that.
That is my theory, whether my theory becomes reality will soon be seen.
— Posted by Frank Ivey
2008
3:00 pm
Roubini has been calling severe recessions for the past 10 years for a myriad of different reasons. He’s like the Bruce Willis character in Conspiracy Theory, he was bound to get something right one time.
Goldman’s business is stronger than ever, and it is churning out profits in this down economy that would be records at many other firms. How much were Q3 profits, 1 billion dollars? Not too shabby. The firm is way too complicated and well managed from the top down. Roubini has no idea about all of the businesses within the firm. Nobody except the GS management committee know whether or not the firm is making money as a whole.
This is a joke. Gross leverage is not the proper way to think of leverage. If you are levered 18 times (I believe that’s roughly its current leverage ratio), but much of the leverage is invested cash and liquid securities, then it doesn’t really matter too much now does it. what really matters is risk-adjusted leverage, which is exactly what the Tier 1 capital ratio measures. And it’s higher than any of the “univeral” banks that, by the way, have all of the exact same businesses that GS does.
Goldman shorts are going to get their faces ripped off. For all the John Sixpacks (as another poster put it), that is for some reason cheering on the demise of GS (who by the way was a very SMALL player in the mortgage business), those getting rich off this are the hedge funds. Next I’m sure you will be complaining about them.
— Posted by All in Cash
2008
6:07 pm
Those criticising Mr. Roubini thus far have of course had regard only for the truth in the most clear and unbiased way, utterly uninfluenced by personal financial gain, untainted by conflicts of interest, pure as the driven….
- which says everything about why we have been dragged into the mire, everywhere.
HE’s been dead right thus far, and has had a lot courage to say so.
For my money any presumption is on his side.
— Posted by Michael Walker
2008
7:39 pm
I bought GS on Friday (with covered calls) for all of the wrong (cynical) reasons. I have confidence that Goldman’s agents in an out of government will ensure the firm’s survival. Management has looted its shareholders since taking the firm public in 1999, and the fawning media have led the average person to believe that Goldman has some magic formula for generating profits. Goldman’s competitive advantage has always been, and always will be, information and influence. All brokers are sleazeballs. They are a necessary cost center for investors and risk takers. However, when brokers also trade for their own accounts, with the fiction of a “Chinese Wall” between their clients’ interests, research and proprietary activities, there are bound to be conflicts. A populist backlash will not solve the problem. Nor will increased oversight from clueless regulators. I wish I had the answer. My own simple, and perhaps naive, solution is to never trade with them.
— Posted by Mark Prentiss
2008
10:00 pm
Dr.Roubini’s calls have been on target but you have to love the nickname Dr.Doom.I recall a 2006 article from Barrons’ Alan Abelson who stated excess leverage,low interest rates & far too many dollars bathing the world’s economy will be the undoing of us all.However,even Abelson who missed the call on the market’s rise from 82 to 2000 seems closer to a Abby Joseph Cohen than the Grand Master of Doomsday Roubini.
— Posted by Robert Shanley
2008
10:09 pm
With no bubble to promote, what are all of these masters of the universe going to do. Maybe there are too many of them and some have to fall by the wayside. You can only lend long high and borrow short low if you have someone to lend the money to. Consolidate is the usual answer to problems of this kind, As a favored company, Goldman will probably survive.
— Posted by c. perry
2008
10:16 pm
Another one saved by Dr. Roubini’s warnings from 2006. What I am most impressed by Nouriel is the fact that his pronouncements are always backed up by understandable facts and analysis. Two other sources have also made the same call with facts backing up their conclusions, Mr. J. Mauldin and a 2006 article in Businessweek on CDOs, which was my leading indicator of the pending disaster. Nevertheless, we should also be even handed on Goldman. They have managed their situation much better than anyone else. There was an article in 2006 profiling Lloyd Blankfin by Furtune. They were aware of the risks then and was preparing for it. However, the disaster is so much worse than anyone had expected, including Dr. Roubini and myself. Now the Goldman business model is being swept away. Instead of denying what is happening, they will have to take action, including taking the medicine given by the Dr.
— Posted by carlfcao
2008
3:07 am
Pure comedy… all the GS cult members should check their tivos to see how well sending stooges to attack Einhorn worked for Fuld. From where I stand, not so much.
My favorite canard from the deniers is that Roubini is the broken clock that’s right twice a day. Sure… except he didn’t make a trivial prediction. He pointed to a systemic problem and spelled out exactly how it would go wrong. Step by bloody step. Then stuck to his guns while everyone called him crazy.
GS has one thing going for it besides being the smartest guys in the room, they’ve bought the ref. Take their alum Hank Paulson. Given the opportunity he will throw the taxpayer overboard to bail out the mothership. He already proved that when he bailed out AIG after a private meeting with Blankfein. It wasn’t a bail out of AIG, it was a bailout of GS who won all these ’smart bets’ with a company that couldn’t pay up. Look for the rest of the bailout to procede the same way. Mysteriously GS will be made whole and probably make a ton of money along the way.
The smarties at GS saw the writing on the wall and underwrote Obama to the tune of $600k, three times as much as McCain got. Too bad they got cheap and didn’t think to buy off every single congressman, just the senators and the leadership.
The only way we the people are going to avoid being raped in this bailout, is if we throw out everyone who voted for this bailout. And since we’re a nation of sheeple, I’ve already started hedging.
— Posted by Dr q
2008
3:51 am
To the comment above me - this is the most ridiculous oversimplification of goldman’s business model I’ve ever heard. They engage in many activities other than fixed income and are market leaders in advisory work and equities which will get them through this lean time before debt picks up again. The current downturn is leading to the typical I told you so’s being thrown around rather than looking for a solution moving forward.
— Posted by JJ
2008
9:31 am
As attested to by many above, Dr. Roubini’s advice has been dead on target and saved many readers (and perhaps untold thousands) from losing their retirement savings in this debacle.
There are a few economists I respect and admire. They don’t work for Goldman Sachs, Wachovia, Moody’s, S&P, GS, MS, etc. They are the “independent thinkers” without fiduciary responsibility to where the collect a paycheck.
A few have stepped to the forefront to warn Joe/Jill American how to protect his/her money from the Wall Street sharks, despite facing public criticism and corporate ridicule. Dr. Roubini has been dead on target and should be considered one of the great American consumer activists as well as a gifted financial clairvoyant.
There are a handful of people that accurately predicted the house of cards Ponzi scheme US economy and it’s greed driven destruction since 2004, a group you can count on one hand. Roubini is one of them.
Paulson, Bernanke, and the Wall Street and Capitol Hill impeded prognosticator’s didn’t see the train wreck until it was 100 feet ahead. Why anyone would consider them to be great financial minds and omit Roubinin and other economists that predicted the head on collision is amazing.
— Posted by Jack McCabe
2008
9:35 am
repeated from another post seen elsewhere:
“Nouriel Roubini is the Elaine Gazarelli of 2008″
— Posted by Tip of cape
2008
2:32 pm
If the corporate insiders are not willing to use some of their bonus monies to buy more shares in GS and MS, as a taxpayer, I say, let them fail.
— Posted by Volcker
2008
5:58 pm
when goldman saks and morgan stanley are gone the business world will improve.these two poorly run companys are a last example of wall st at is lowest…time to empty the trash and move on………
— Posted by plange01
2008
1:22 am
“HE’s been dead right thus far, and has had a lot courage to say so.
For my money any presumption is on his side.”
“OMG, GS employees, if you want to sing praise for your sicken employer”
As an Australian observer and unbiased either way about Goldman Sachs I have to say comments like the above is surprising as 99% of the comments so far have been:
Dr Doom is the best he predicted everything.
So really that last comment should read:
“OMG, Dr Doom fanbois, if you want to sing praise…”
Basically, I for one have predicted the demise of the finance model in the US for some time by observing the different models employed in Australia and the US and why a lot of financial institutions resisted adopting the US model completely.
However, that does not make me a prophet. People are too quick to idolise “experts”. Just use some common sense, no wonder Wall St was able to sucker the majority of the US population.
— Posted by Michael
2008
2:14 am
For those who sing GS/MS praise - admit it, either you are a GS/MS employee or you own their stocks.
For those who hate GS/MS - admit it, either you were rejected as a job applicant or you simply hate anyone who’s obscenely rich.
How can anyone hate or love a company that much? Most of what you guys say are applicable to ALL companies, to various degrees.
— Posted by Tom
2008
2:37 am
Some wag recently characterized the balance sheet accounting situation as follows; NOTHING ON THE LEFT IS RIGHT AND NOTHING ON THE RIGHT IS LEFT. Thus endeth the lesson.
— Posted by Jack Spear
2008
7:33 am
Buffet stepped in to save Salomon Brothers in the early 90’s after it tried to corner the market in treasuries and almost went under. It was only his assurance to the government that he would do whatever it took to clean house that saved it from collapse. (Well, that, plus a $300 million or so fine, a record at the time.)
He did what he promised and the firm survived…for a while. But it was never the same again, and several years later it was bought out by Travelers and merged with SmithBarney, another of its recent acquisitions. Which itself was bought out by Citiband several years after that.
Buffet did this as much to protect his 15% stake in Salomon as to save the firm. In that sense, his stepping in worked–for him (and for its employees and shareholders, of course). But it didn’t save the firm in the long run. He has a great track record, but not a perfect one. His investment in Goldman might pay off. Or it might not. Too soon to tell.
Me, I wouldn’t touch it, unless I had a lot of excess capital to play with. Which I don’t.
— Posted by kovie
2008
8:37 am
Goldman would have already gone under a few weeks ago but as soon as that had begun to happen the Treasury called for the massive $700 billion bailout program. Make no mistake about it, Paulson has asked the taxpayers for $700 billion principally to bail out his former firm.
— Posted by JD
2008
9:29 am
the great wall st. ” cant handle the truth ” thank u mr Roubini
— Posted by guy
2008
10:25 am
The broker/dealer investment model which was trumpeted in our business school classes and text books is no longer the paradigm. GS’ conversion to Commerical bank status is a futile attempt to save its self from the inevitable. On the subprime issue, I think GS made “secretive” deals with certain Sov Funds to “bury” the firm’s exposure to sub-prime and other real estate “troubled” assets. By doing so, GS gives the impression that they are smarter than the other IBs. Although Buffet has a long term view, as of Friday his position in GS was almost $2B in losses from his investment.
— Posted by FHP
2008
7:32 pm
Anyone remember what happened when Buffet took over Solomon Brothers?
— Posted by Louie A
2008
12:31 pm
Actually, the total amount of Federal taxpayer money that has been allocated for the banks, particularly the Wall Street banks, according to Bloomberg Financials (which is the single most used source for financial information in the world), is 7.7 TRILLION DOLLARS.
That’s right. In less than one month, the Federal Government has allocated 1.5 times the entire existing US Federal Deficit to be given to Wall Street banks.
So far, the banks have NOT:
1. lowered interest rates to match the cuts made by the fed.
2. lowered credit card interest rates from their predatory levels of 29%
3. reduced foreclosures by accepting some loss on the loans…they”ve simply deferred foreclosures until the beginning of 2009.
4. lowered executive compensation to anything that would resemble ‘reasonable’.
5. accepted zero compensation for a year, which is the correct thing to do.
What the banks HAVE done is:
1. Pay their executives over 3 Billion dollars in bonuses. BONUSES!!!!!!! NOT SALARY! BONUSES!!!! For destroying the US and World financial system, they”ve been paying BONUSES that are in the multimillions PER PERSON!
2. Buying up smaller, healthy banks in order to suck the reserves of more people into their balance sheets…and in order to transfer layoffs out of New York and onto the main streets of America.
2. They’ve been throwing parties. Big parties. Multimillion dollar parties. http://tinyurl.com/562moo
The Fed bailed out the banks because everyone felt that our economy needed the banks to exist so that they could do what banks do: Lend Money.
Are the banks doing that? ABSOLUTELY NOT! They are hoarding it, and using it to prop up salaries that allow these parasites to own 4 and 5 multimillion dollar homes which they only visit 2 or 3 times a year.
http://tinyurl.com/5qf7cu
Make the world a better place. Get rid of these sociopathic parasites…get them out of our economy. Clearly, we don”t need these banks. We effectively don’t have them today…they aren’t lending money, aren’t participating in fixing the markets and the economies they’ve broken, aren’t taking losses on the bogus bonds they’ve issued, or loans they’ve written, aren’t fostering business, aren’t stabilizing the markets. They are a gigantic expense, and the super wealthy sociopaths that run them are an expense that needs to be cut. These people should be stripped of their earnings, their assets, and their families’ assets, and, at a minimum, be thrown in prison for 30 years. Real prison, not club fed.
Dump the big banks now. Imprison the people that run them. Fix our country.
— Posted by Wake Up